erich musick's blog

Re: Leadership Team Development, Quixtar, Amway, and Greed

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 21:04:53 -0600

JJ -

I wanted to clarify something you said before I respond further.

You said your interpretation of Osteen's book is that he's teaching that people "do not have the 'things' they want because they don't know Christ and/or how His laws operate."

First, would you agree with Osteen's teaching?

Second, what is it about knowing Christ and/or how His laws operate that enables us to have the "things" we want?

Third, do you think Job trusted God? Why did God allow Satan to take everything from him?

- Erich

Re: Leadership Team Development, Quixtar, Amway, and Greed

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 00:33:29 -0600

Are you suggesting that spending more money is what it takes to become wealthier? I don't understand how that works.

Traditional businesses, the answer is yes. It requires someone to take the risk and put out time, capital and effort. Often times at a sacrifice to personal income and/or savings. To say otherwise would stupid or deceitful. However, Amway/Quixtar offer the opportunity at a laughable expense (or investment--depends on your thought process). $150 to start, which is refundable for 6 months along with any products you purchase, including consumables. Go to your local grocery store and ask for this guarantee, then tell me the response.

Even if Amway/Quixtar products are of a higher quality than one might purchase at Wal-mart, that does not mean that purchasing Amway/Quixtar products is advantageous or helpful to one's personal budget.

On the contrary. If all you are doing is purchasing products and comparing prices, often to incomparable products, then in some cases it may hurt and in others it may help. The advantage you have to being able to create wealth by increasing the volume. Through straight customers who want to purchase your wares, or through others that wish for an opportunity.
Your example is flawed and doesn't represent the business model. Say you decide to buy the Lexus at $25k but through word of mouth referrals, customers and other "sales" people, you receive a bonus of 31% of your purchase price ($7,750), plus bonuses for volume generated by other sales people you referred to that Lexus dealership and your commission was only 3% on their sales of one similar car ($2,250). You are left with a $15,000 car payment. All the while giving those 3 people the same opportunity you have to do the same thing. What if the next month you didn't buy another car, but rather sold one and so did the same 3 people. Total cash in your pocket would be $10k. Or your car would now cost $5k. Then the following month the same thing...so in three month's time your car is paid for plus 5k in your pocket.

Which is more important? Having a vision? Or the object of that vision?

This is a baited question at best. Most people's vision/dream start small and gradually work to something of importance if they stick with it long enough.

You make the assumption that the opposite of pursuing wealth is pursuing poverty. I would argue that the opposite of pursuing wealth is pursuing Christ.

Not true, because I pursue Christ, I pursue abundance. Your assumption is that people who pursue abundance always turn away from Christ and that having that goal is some sort of sin. Potential for sin? Yes! Always a sin? Nope.

No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money."

And where have said anywhere that LTD teaches we serve money or the love of money. Quite to the contrary I have given my personal experience as well as the teachings of LTD regarding this topic. Are you conveniently forgetting this?

Is the primary goal of the Christians you know in LTD to "count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus the Lord"? Or is to become rich?

We do not count everything as a loss. At least in terms of what that word means today. I have learned to count everything joy. God wants us to live in abundance by his rules, the Kingdom is His and his blessings are always perfect. Erich, as I said before, I will not get into a tit for tat Bible quotation square off with you or anyone else. I will tell you my experiences truthfully and hopefully as articulate as I can.

From what you have observed, are your fellow LTD members diligent in their efforts to steer clear from the love of money?

I can't and won't speak of other members of LTD, but for me it is perfectly clear. I grew up dirt poor, in hardly a Christ filled home. I will tell you I thank God everyday for the blessings in my life. Not just monetarily, but also my awesome family. Without Him none of it would have been possible (more of a personal matter).

I would not force my beliefs on anyone. If that Muslim you speak of asked about Christ, you bet I would let him know where I stand. I don't apologize to anyone for my beliefs. God and Jesus are not weak and neither am I.

What would you say are God's "multiple streams of income" in building his kingdom?

Have you been reading our dialogue? His multiple streams are how he reaches people. Missionaries, Pastors, Preachers, Musicians and dare I say it, Christian business men. How about the U.S.A. founded on Godly principles as an example to the world?

If you look at Osteen's book, Your Best Life Now, you'll find that he talks about how people do not have things because they do not believe that they can attain them

Erich, this completely depends on how you interpret his book. Your belief is that he teaches people they can not attain things because they lack faith in themselves and not Christ. Whereas, my interpretation is they do not have the "things" they want because they don't know Christ and/or how His laws operate.

Now some of my questions remain to you Erich.
1)Who defines what a simple life is?
2)Now, I found my Lord and Savior through this business and business team, who are you or Mr. Piper to tell me I received my gospel incorrectly?

Re: Leadership Team Development, Quixtar, Amway, and Greed

Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:12:20 -0600

JJ -

I don't completely understand your comment about saving your way to wealth. Are you suggesting that spending more money is what it takes to become wealthier? I don't understand how that works.

Even if Amway/Quixtar products are of a higher quality than one might purchase at Wal-mart, that does not mean that purchasing Amway/Quixtar products is advantageous or helpful to one's personal budget. If all you need is something of Wal-mart quality, then why spend more on something else, even if you're getting a good price on it? Let me explain with an example. Let's say I'm looking to purchase a car. All I need is a simple two-door, four cylinder car which I can pick up for $15k. BMW, one of the top of the line automobile manufacturers, makes a fancier, four-door, six-cylinder car for $35k. Now, I've got a friend who works for Lexus and can get me a deal on a car very similar to the BMW ... $25k. What a steal! I'm saving $10k! But, you have to remember, all that I really needed was the $15k car. So, in reality, I'm actually losing $10k. Now, take the example with a grain of salt - there are lots of factors in buying a car - resale value, gas costs, etc. - but I think this still makes the point clearly.

I instead, looked for all the right reasons to build it. Most folk do not. They lack vision and a dream and we both know "A man without vision will perish".

Which is more important? Having a vision? Or the object of that vision?

You mean like teachings that proclaim God wants his children to live near destitution, in FEAR of money, instead of respect of money? Teachings, or demonstrable interpretations that give people an excuse to remain poor?

You make the assumption that the opposite of pursuing wealth is pursuing poverty. I would argue that the opposite of pursuing wealth is pursuing Christ. Look at what Jesus says in Matthew 6:24: "No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money."

In his letter to the Philippians, Paul says, "I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. 12 I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need. 13 I can do all things through him who strengthens me" (4:11-13). Have you learned to be content in whatever situation you are in? Have your fellow LTD members learned to be content whether they are facing abundance or need? Or, do the meetings promote dissatisfaction with present conditions and suggest a need to pursue more?

Earlier in Philippians, Paul lists his entitlements as a Pharisee. He concludes by saying, "But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith� 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead."

Is the primary goal of the Christians you know in LTD to "count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus the Lord"? Or is to become rich?

Who is to say what "simple" living is? My guess for Mr. Piper, would be anyone who is making as much or less than him. Anyone making more, must be lustful.

All of John Piper's sermons are available for a free download from http://desiringgod.org. I think if you listen to a few you will quickly discover that his heart is not how you have depicted it. Like me, he is concerned with peoples' hearts. I posted a quote in my original article from a different pastor:

Jesus never condemned wealth in and of itself, but he knows how easily our hearts can make money our god. Jesus knows and he wants us to understand that one of the greatest, if not the greatest hindrance to spiritual life and spiritual growth is material wealth and the temptations it brings with us. Friends, if we ignore the dangers of affluenza, we put ourselves in great spiritual peril.

From what you have observed, are your fellow LTD members diligent in their efforts to steer clear from the love of money?

What I think is the sham is for people to force their beliefs and understanding of God and the Bible on others. They are man, just like the rest of us, fallible to their experiences and lot in life. The Bible is for the everyday Christian to read and understand all of God's laws for himself. Not pick and choose!

When you encounter a Muslim, do you share the Gospel with them, even though they might perceive it as you forcing your beliefs on them? I think this is an excuse many people use to avoid sharing the gospel. But, we have to remember God's command to "go into all the world, teaching people to obey all that Jesus has commanded."

Isn't God a business man too? Isn't he in the business of saving souls? In any business you look for multiple streams of income to build a portfolio of different assets

What would you say are God's "multiple streams of income" in building his kingdom?

Well then I am glad LTD and its leaders do not teach your "prosperity" gospel.

In one of your earlier comments, you mentioned some well-known preachers - Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer. I know these aren't leaders of LTD, but you might find it interesting to note that the Wikipedia article on "Prosperity Theology" lists them as proponents of this doctrine.

Earlier I asked about the importance of one's vision vs. the object of one's vision. The key distinction to make between what a prosperity preacher will tell you and what the Bible says lies in this. If you look at Osteen's book, Your Best Life Now, you'll find that he talks about how people do not have things because they do not believe that they can attain them. This is faith for faith's sake. The Bible teaches that we are to have faith in Christ. Not in ourselves, not in material things.

So, my question to you and Mr. Piper would be, what does it matter how much money a person makes, IF they are walking with Him throughout their lives?

No, it does not matter how much money a person makes. But, a person's attitude toward the money they make does matter.

Re: Leadership Team Development, Quixtar, Amway, and Greed

Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:40:07 -0600

One of the facts that nagged at my dad through the duration of his involvement as an Amway distributor was the fact that he was paying more for the products through the network than he would outside of Amway.

I may have misinterpreted what you meant here, but our Biblical discussion aside, this is probably the most heard of criticism of our business. And the most grossly exaggerated, exploited and uneducated excuse not to build this, or ANY business. It is a simple thought process problem. What is that problem? That you will CAN save your way to wealth! It simply will not happen. You mentioned the parable of the Talents...perfect example. The answer is, your dad, and many who quit do not compare apples to apples, rather apples to rotten oranges. What do I mean, they compare the price of Quixtar's core line consumables with that of the Wal-Marts of the world, never bothering to check, quality and convenience. Not to mention the usage instructions. If you go through the main core lines of Quixtar/Amway, (Artistry-high end cosmetics, compare to Estee Lauder, Clinic--usually quite a bit cheaper and better. Nutrilite--No comparison world wide to Double X. SA8--Environmentally friendly, BEST Cleaning of all the top brands, including non-environmentally friendly brands and on within a few cents per load. Check Consumers Report 99/100 L.O.C. Liquid Organic Cleaner, far cheaper than the name brands per use.) And those were the brands when he was a distributor. It has since grown from there to include Ribbon, Gensona, eSpring, Simply Nutrilite, XS Energy as well as partner stores where people already shop.

If, he or anyone else, wants to SAVE then they should continue to do exactly what they were doing before because that thought process will not get them anywhere in this business or any other business! Hope I made myself clear. Jesus doesn't tolerate excuses and ignorance and neither do I. If you would like Erich, I could also list in my next post the next 5 reasons why people don't build this business. I instead, looked for all the right reasons to build it. Most folk do not. They lack vision and a dream and we both know "A man without vision will perish".

Prosperity

2 Timothy 4:3-4 - For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

You mean like teachings that proclaim God wants his children to live near destitution, in FEAR of money, instead of respect of money? Teachings, or demonstrable interpretations that give people an excuse to remain poor? Who is to say what "simple" living is? My guess for Mr. Piper, would be anyone who is making as much or less than him. Anyone making more, must be lustful.

Galatians 1:6-8 - I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel� 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Erich, pay close attention to the last sentence. "If anyone is preaching something different that YOU received, let him be accursed." Now, I found my Lord and Savior through this business and business team, who are you or Mr. Piper to tell me I received my gospel incorrectly? Do you understand what I meant in how God reaches people? He may reach some people who want to live a "simple" life, great good for them. For others their calling may be missionary work, good for them, you won't see me get in their way. What I think is the sham is for people to force their beliefs and understanding of God and the Bible on others. They are man, just like the rest of us, fallible to their experiences and lot in life. The Bible is for the everyday Christian to read and understand all of God's laws for himself. Not pick and choose!

At the crux of the "prosperity gospel" that Piper references lies the sentiment that if we believe in God, He will make us wealthy, or prosperous; that all will go well in our lives, without problems. The biggest problem with the prosperity gospel is that it suggests Christ no longer died to save us from our sins, but to save us from poverty and to make us wealthy.

Well then I am glad LTD and its leaders do not teach your "prosperity" gospel. As I read it for myself, the salvation of Christ is a free gift, one we as men are not worthy of, and ANYONE can receive it. So, long as he/she raises His name on High before his/her peers they will be saved. No where did I ever read that you also make a bond to be broke and give all your money away--in fact doesn't God say 10%?(Lev. 27:30;
Num. 18:21, Deut. 12:6; 14:28 26:12; 2Ch 31:5; Neh. 10:38; 12:44; 13:12; Mal 3:10). Or, is it simply in the New Testament we should give as our heart commands, freely and cheerfully (1 Cor 16:2, 2 Cor 9:6-77, 2 Cor 8:8, MK 12: 41-44,? Isn't God a business man too? Isn't he in the business of saving souls? In any business you look for multiple streams of income to build a portfolio of different assets. Do you think God thinks like this as well? I do.

You also mention somewhere about giving lavishly! If you are in a true walk with God would it matter how much money you had? Especially if you were giving lavishly, out of the cheerfulness of your hear? Now, that isn't to say that the poor person who gives, does so any less lavishly, so long as they are on the right path with God. I also believe that Mr. Piper is confusing, having money and spending it, with the lust nature of our flesh.

So, my question to you and Mr. Piper would be, what does it matter how much money a person makes, IF they are walking with Him throughout their lives?

Re: Leadership Team Development, Quixtar, Amway, and Greed

Sun, 09 Nov 2008 17:50:34 -0600

JJ -

Turnover
You make a good point regarding the relevancy of turnover in LTD to the advance of the gospel. However, considering the fact that Amway and LTD aren't Christian organizations, I think it is still a fair point in the discussion of the business aspect of things. It begs the question, "Why?" One of the facts that nagged at my dad through the duration of his involvement as an Amway distributor was the fact that he was paying more for the products through the network than he would outside of Amway.

Prosperity Gospel
You're right ... the Bible doesn't have two different gospels. It has one. I know you're familiar with this, but for the benefit of those who are reading this and may not be, here's a brief synopsis of the Gospel.

God created a perfect world and gave the first human beings - Adam and Eve - charge over all of His Creation. He gave them one simple command, but they disobeyed, thus separating them (and all of mankind) from God. We are all born sinful, we all are "children of wrath" by nature, "conduct[ing] ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind" rather than what is according to God. The punishment for our sin, our disobedience to a holy and righteous God is eternal death. But God "who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses" sent Christ to die on the cross to take his sins upon us. Whoever believes in Him will not die (spiritually) and suffer the consequences of his sin, but instead have eternal life in Heaven with God after this life.

I have listened to enough of John Piper's sermons to know that this is what he would describe as THE gospel revealed to us in God's word. So, what, then, did he mean when he used the term, "prosperity gospel?" I am confident that he was not suggesting the scriptures suggest some other way to God. Rather, he was referring to alternative man-made "gospels" that people have created in order to satisfy the desires of the flesh.
It should come to no surprise to us that man has created alternative "gospels." The Bible anticipates this:

2 Timothy 4:3-4 - For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Galatians 1:6-8 - I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel� 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

At the crux of the "prosperity gospel" that Piper references lies the sentiment that if we believe in God, He will make us wealthy, or prosperous; that all will go well in our lives, without problems. The biggest problem with the prosperity gospel is that it suggests Christ no longer died to save us from our sins, but to save us from poverty and to make us wealthy.

Earlier in the sermon I quoted from before, Piper made the following remarks:

The Poverty of the Prosperity Gospel
This message was originally conceived as a response to what is often called the Prosperity Gospel�or the Health, Wealth, and Prosperity Gospel. This distortion of the gospel is blatant among some prominent TV preachers. But what makes it relevant for a missions message is that it is one of the most tragic exports from America to the two-thirds world, especially Africa.

This "gospel" says, to quote one of the founders of the movement, Kenneth Copeland, "There are certain laws governing prosperity revealed in God's Word. Faith causes them to function. They will work when they are put to work, and they will stop working when the force of faith is stopped" (The Laws of Prosperity, 19). And what is sadly obvious and prominent is that material prosperity, not spiritual prosperity through hardship, is the focus.

Or as a more contemporary representative says more simply, "God desires us to become wealthy for him." (Tecoy Porter, Releasing Your Inner Treasure: 8 Kingdom Keys to Unlocking the Wealth Within You, xxvi). There is so much to say about this kind of preaching.

True Missions: Dying to Material Prosperity
But as I have prepared for this message, that part of what I want to do has receded to the background. I will mention it shortly, but what I hope to do is give you a more straightforward positive encouragement toward true biblical missions, and leave most of the criticism of the Prosperity Gospel for articles later on.

At the heart of true biblical missions is the willingness to die to the cravings that prosperity preachers exploit. At the heart of true biblical missions (both for the goers and the senders) is an eagerness to live simply and give lavishly. At the heart of true biblical missions is suffering, not merely as a result of proclamation, but also as a means of proclamation�a means of making the saving sufferings of Christ known to the world. As Joseph Tson says, "Christ's sufferings are for propitiation; our sufferings are for propagation."

I'd also recommend you check out Piper's other sermon, entitled Prosperity Preaching: Deceitful and Deadly

Hank Hanegraaff addresses this topic in his book, Christianity in Crisis.

I hope this description makes some sense to you ... if you're interested in better understanding the prosperity gospel and how it deviates from the gospel of Jesus Christ, let me know and I can send you some more links, buy you a copy of this book, or discuss it further with you.

Re: Leadership Team Development, Quixtar, Amway, and Greed

Thu, 06 Nov 2008 21:48:09 -0600

Erich,

Good example with the employees. If that is what he meant, then I guess it would make sense. My question, regardless of how true it is, is why would turnover matter? Especially to this discussion? The real litmus test would be, how many people that accept Jesus into their lives within LTD have turned their back on Him since. That would be more appropriate, but darn harder to find out. Isn't it about serving His Kingdom and no one else? How many of those people that leave are better off and lead better lives because they found peace with the Lord? Most I would wager.

Nobody who has the mindset of the Prosperity Gospel is going to be a missionary among those peoples. The only ones who go will have the mind of Christ�who came not to be served but to serve and give his life as a ransom for many...

He is basically saying that all people who preach "prosperity gospel" refuse to go into places where their are poor people. This is an untrue statement, as well as the folks that teach "prosperity" only teach "how to get rich". I didn't know the Bible had two different gospels. Did I miss something in the preface to Genesis? Anything that says "here is the difference between prosperity gospel and poor and suffering gospel or the "holier than thou" gospel?" In fact doesn't He say this in

Mark 16:15,16: "Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.

By "ye" doesn't that mean EVERYONE?(or at least the believers) Assuming the person's heart is in the right place with the Lord, why is one way of preaching the Gospel any worse or better than another way?

Some of the biggest names in evangelical Christians often go to "those peoples" and serve personally and most definitely financially. Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer. These folks all preach prosperity and they dedicate significant portions of their time preaching and serving "those people".

Re: Leadership Team Development, Quixtar, Amway, and Greed

Thu, 06 Nov 2008 21:18:30 -0600

JJ -

Employee Turnover
Once again, I got this statistic from someone who is actually involved in LTD. I'm not sure where he heard the statistic, and I can't speak to its accuracy. However, one point of clarification: I think you can still have growth despite turnover. From doing a little research online, it sounds like you calculate turnover by taking the number of employees who leave during a period of time and divide by the average number of employees during that period. Let's take an example. A company has 200 employees Jan 1, 2007. During the year, 144 people quit and 244 new people join, leaving us with 280 employees Dec 31, 2007.

Avg # employees = ((280 - 200) / 2 ) + 200 = 240
Turnover = 144 / 240 = 60%
Growth = (280 - 200) / 200 = 40%

So, you see, this company has a turnover of 60% and it still has a growth rate of 40%.

Jesus - Wealthy?
You said, "I deduced that he had to have been wealthy." I hold to my previous comment that the passage about Judas which I pointed out does not imply Jesus was wealthy. He was simply collecting money to give to the poor. Regardless, it sounds like we agree on the fact that Jesus wasn't going around impressing others with money, but rather with the way that He loved them.

"fear-mongering"

Which paragraph did you feel was an example of this? Can you explain to me how Piper was playing on peoples' fears in his sermon? Would you say that what he said is true of many people?

Re: Leadership Team Development, Quixtar, Amway, and Greed

Thu, 06 Nov 2008 13:28:37 -0600

Wow, I didn't enter the right code, and it deleted everything i wrote...haha. Well, God certainly has a plan, I guess there was something He didn't want me to say!

First, LTD Team Member, your passion is awesome! JJ, Beck, Erich, thank you for the continued compliments. It makes it enjoyable to talk with you. I want to apologize for my first two posts, I was feeling a little defensive. Then, when I looked back and saw where this discussion was giong, instead of a one-sided attack, it's turned into a great discussion. I couldn't walk away from it with a good conscience.

So, thank you everyone who has participated on here for that.

Erich, you asked some very good questions. First, whoever posted the suggestion that you should attend a function, I have to agree. There's no better way to see the hearts and mind of the leaders of this organization. Even were we face to face, I couldn't convey it.

But your questions about, saving money, have I been successful. Yes, I've saved money, and I feel I've been successful so far. I've been in this business for only 5 months. This is not a get-rich-quick business, nor am I rich. But let me just say, it is paying my rent reliably from month to month. I find I'm breathing easier, my relationships with everyone close to me (including God) are better, I feel I have less stress.

And it's not because I am making great money. That helps. But really, the change in my life has occurred from finding truly positive Christian people to be good role models in my life. They teach me to lead, the teach me how to be a good example, they openly and unashamedly talk about God. It's an absolutely positive atmosphere.

My sponsor and I are a bit competitive. We have fun that way. But, in 5 months, I've come to a point, where I am financially more stable than he is. I'm making more money. Therefore, since I am making more money than the person who brought me into this business, it is not a pyramid scheme of any kind. How that works, well, get registered, and I'll show you how. Literally. I hope and pray every day for the right actions to help the people that I've registered make more money than myself. I try to serve my team every day. Because I sincerely care about them, their lives, their family's lives, their finances, I want to help them when and where I can.

I hope that answers a few of your questions, Erich. If you have any more, please, feel free to write m back. I'll try to be better about checking this discussion board.

Thanks again, and God Bless!!!

Ken

Re: Leadership Team Development, Quixtar, Amway, and Greed

Thu, 06 Nov 2008 11:38:46 -0600

Erich,

Great posts! I liked a lot of what you said. I will comment on some of the questions and comments you made.
1)60% turnover rate Well I think this comment is categorically false. Here's why. There is turnover, no doubt in any thing, I am not disputing that. It has been my experience that when I became a member of LTD, before it was LTD, the total number of people was around 20,000. Just recently the corporation of Quixtar told us there were over 50,000 registered businesses. By your numbers there should be a loss in total numbers. I don't see that.

Jesus being wealthy My understanding through knowing the story of Juda, I deduced that he had to have been wealthy. Now, this doesn't mean Jesus walked around with a ton of "bling", dope slapping people with money. As LTDMEMBER points out he was very humble. I know this as well. Jesus never wanted for anything while he was here, at least material things. We don't read anywhere that he was destitute or starving by circumstances beyond His control.
Your statement

Then again, Christ, because He is God, is rich. The world is his, and all that is in it.

is spot on. People weren't attracted to Him because of this, they were attracted because of His willingness to unconditionally serve people.

Wealth is a mortal danger for those who have it. It does not make us generous and humble. It makes us buy more stuff, and it numbs our conscience because we have to blind ourselves to our inconsistencies with the Calvary road.

To a degree I can agree with this, but where I differ is he is saying all wealthy people are bad. Learning to generous and humble, for most people I know, comes when you have nothing. Yet you still give what you don't have. With this experience, and the teachings of Christ, a man is much more capable of handling "wealth" because he is already rich before he accumulates wealth.

To be honest the next paragraph of that sermon is blatant fear-mongering to the people he was preaching to. He is teaching the old falsehood of money/wealth is evil. When, as I have stated before, it is the LOVE of money that is evil. Worshiping money as a false god is the sin, not having it and using it as a tool to serve others.

Re: Leadership Team Development, Quixtar, Amway, and Greed

Wed, 29 Oct 2008 22:35:47 -0500

A couple of questions / comments ... some for JJ, some for LTDTEAMMEMBER, and some for both.

JJ - You commented on LTD Team Member's excitement and suggested it was derived from seeing "different way of making money." What about the "LTD" way of making money is/was exciting to you?

You asked where I obtained the 60% statistic. A different LTD member volunteered it in an email to me. My dad also had heard a similar statistic. Here's the excerpt from what the other guy said to me:

Let me give you a stat about LTD and where they stand in the AmWay system. We are the fastest growing team and we also have the greatest turn over rate of anyone. We have a 40% growth and a 60% turn-over.

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JJ & LTD Team Member -

My comment about McDonald's was simply a response to the criticism of my comment that LTD and Quixtar are the same thing. I was pointing out that while they may not technically be the same thing, there are plenty of things that we generally consider to be the same which are not actually.

Regarding the comment of Jesus being wealthy. Can you point me to the passages in which you find Jesus described as wealthy? Here's what I find:

John 12:4-7 NIV But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5"Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." 6He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

We learn from this passage that the money bag was used to hold gifts given to the disciples to be given to the poor. Jesus and his disciples were the middle man. How do we know this? Well, Judas wanted the lady to give the money "for the poor" so he could steal it. The only way he could steal it is if the money "for the poor" is what was stored in the money bag. Jesus wasn't walking around making the big bucks. He was collecting for the poor. Saying that Jesus was wealthy is like saying a church is rich because it took in $1 mil to donate to World Vision.

Then again, Christ, because He is God, is rich. The world is his, and all that is in it.

In Mark 6, Jesus sends out the 12 disciples, two by two. "These were his instructions: 'Take nothing for the journey except a staff�no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. 9Wear sandals but not an extra tunic." (Mark 6:8)

My point in writing the original article about LTD, Amway, and Quixtar is not so much to speak poorly of the organization but to challenge anyone reading to love Christ more. To see to it that he does not love the world, nor the things of the world. To warn of the dangers of loving money that Paul describes to Timothy: "But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition." (1 Timothy 6:8).

The following quote is from an essay titled "Christ's Greatest Trophy" by J.C. Ryle. I read it earlier this week and it really challenged my thinking. I so often am focused on the here and now and lose sight of Him whom I am seeking to serve, of Him who died for my sins, of Him whom I will worship and with whom I will live for eternity. This was a good reminder of what it's really about (emphasis added):

I cannot describe what kind of place paradise is, because I cannot understand the condition of a soul separate from the body. But I ask no brighter view of paradise than this�that Christ is there. All other things, in the picture which imagination draws of the state between death and resurrection, are nothing in comparison of this. How He is there, and in what way He is there, I know not. Let me only see Christ in paradise when my eyes close in death, and that suffices me. Well does the psalmist say, 'In Your presence is fullness of joy' (Ps. 16:11). It was a true saying of a dying girl, when her mother tried to comfort her by describing what paradise would be. 'There,' she said to the child, 'there you will have no pains, and no sickness; there you will see your brothers and sisters, who have gone before you, and will be always happy.' 'Ah, mother,' was the reply, 'but there is one thing better than all, and that is, Christ will be there!'

It may be you do not think much about your soul. It may be you know little of Christ as your Savior. and have never tasted by experience that He is precious. And yet perhaps you hope to go to paradise when you die. Surely this passage is one that should make you think. Paradise is a place where Christ is. Then can it be a place that you would enjoy?

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LTDTeam Member -

Thanks for eliminating the caps in your most recent post. It makes it easier and more pleasant to read. I understand your desire to emphasize certain points. You can use "BBCode" for this purpose. That will allow you to make text Bold or Italic, for example. Above the comment box, see the "You may use BBCode within your posts; a reference is available here." -- Click the "here" link and that will show you how to do that.

You're right that you don't have to be at church to worship God. However, my comment was directed at your statement: "NOW I FEEL LIKE THAT THERE'S NOTHING ELSE OUT THERE, WHERE YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN OTHER'S LIVES, AND HAVE A TEAM TO HELP YOU ACHIEVE YOUR DREAMS." My point is simply that there are other things besides LTD which allow you to make a difference and achieve your dreams. Your church is one example. It is dangerous to start holding things other than Christ in higher regard than Him and His body.

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JJ & LTD Team Member -

I was listening to a sermon today that touched on the relationship between money and missions. I'd like to share an excerpt from it. You can read the manuscript or listen to the preached version at the Desiring God web site.

Lack of Money Is Not the Problem

Of course, contrary to what the Prosperity Gospel teaches, wealth is not usually a blessing. It is usually a curse. Jesus said, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God" (Luke 18:25). Wealth is a mortal danger for those who have it. It does not make us generous and humble. It makes us buy more stuff, and it numbs our conscience because we have to blind ourselves to our inconsistencies with the Calvary road.

Paul said to the prosperity preachers of his day, "Those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs" (1 Timothy 6:9-10).

The Problem: We Have So Much Money

No, it isn't for lack of money that there are 1,568 peoples with no missionaries. It's because we have so much. The comforts of the West have made us soft and cautious and fearful and indulgent and self-protecting, instead of tough and risk-taking and bold and self-controlled and self-sacrificing. When prosperity preachers fly their personal jets to the Two-thirds World and promise the poor that if they believe in Jesus, they will get rich, they are not doing Christian missions. They are destroying its foundations. That is not the gospel that saves and produces sacrifice.

Where do missionaries come from? Most of the peoples that are still unreached today are in places that are dangerous. Nobody who has the mindset of the Prosperity Gospel is going to be a missionary among those peoples. The only ones who go will have the mind of Christ�who came not to be served but to serve and give his life as a ransom for many, and who said, "As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you (Mark 10:45; John 20:21). I don't send you to get rich. I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves (Matthew 10:16).

- Erich